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Friday, February 20, 2009

Throttle Position Sensor





The top two photos are of a Throttle Position Sensor off a 2005 Ford Expedition with 5.4L Engine. The TPS acting up will cause a variety of goofy driving problems, including sticking you on the roadside.
A repair which has cropped up lately in the last couple months on the 5.4 Liter Ford engine is a faulty Throttle Position Sensor. The latest one yesterday was a 2005 Ford Expedition with only 31,000 miles on it. They all had relatively low mileage, between 30,000 and 60,000 miles. The symptoms were relatively the same: no power on the freeway, surging RPM’s, and check engine light on with various throttle position sensor codes. I’m writing this up because when I see something like Throttle Position Sensors acting up on similar applications in a short period of time, it may mean a pattern failure, where I will be seeing more. The pictures above show what a Throttle Position Sensor looks like and where it’s mounted. When the gas pedal is pushed down to accelerate the vehicle, the TPS feeds throttle position electrically to the onboard computer. I included a different view of the plastic intake on the Expedition’s engine.

Tune-ups on these 5.4L Engines can be very expensive. They have a built in problem in that when the spark plugs are removed, they many times strip the threads out of the head. Techs try to avoid this by spraying WD-40 into the spark plug hole at a depth so it pools around the plug base. Loosening the plug a quarter turn at a time and tightening it occasionally while letting it soak in the WD-40 in between helps.

01/12/12 - With so many comments on this post, I decided to add an addendum to it covering some of the further items afflicting the Expedition. Here’s a list of some things I’ve experienced with these.
1.                  If you have multiple throttle codes, it will almost always mean an electronic throttle body replacement along with the throttle position sensor.
2.                  The wiring harness running behind the Exhaust Gas Recirculation tube chaffs through the harness wiring and causes a multitude of goofy sensor and code problems.
3.                  They have updated spark plugs for these. In a related note, misfiring coils and spark plugs also cause an array of unrelated codes. My advice is change both the spark plugs and individual coil on plug assemblies every 60,000 miles.
4.                  The alternator going out on the Expeditions can and does cause electronic interference, disrupting engine and transmission operation.
5.                  A link to the Technical Service Bulletin for Transmission and Drivability problems related to a check ball breaking inside the transmission valve body.
6.                  I came across myriad problems in the East and Midwest after much research where a leaking windshield leaks water into the fuse box. The fuel pump relay is built into it so the fuse box has to be replaced when leakage is found. If the C270 dark green wire at the fuse box has no power it would point to corrosion in the fuse box. That could also cause myriad weird other electrical problems.
That’s all for this update, but if you’re appreciative of the information, here is a link to my new novel COLD BLOODED for Nook and Kindle. If you’re kind enough to read it and like it, please review it on the site you purchase it from. Thank You! Every little bit helps my writing gig. :)

538 comments:

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BernardL said...

You can't test for excessive back pressure by feel, Chris. Some Techs drill a port in front of the cats and take a pressure reading there while increasing RPM. I made an access port with an old oxygen sensor. I take out the oxygen sensor in front of each cat and put in my homemade pressure port to test for back pressure. About your vehicle setting an oxygen sensor code. It may not only be the exhaust leak causing a lean oxygen sensor code. An electric fuel pump going out will set off a lean oxygen sensor code too. I can tell you're trying to avoid a diagnostic check but guessing will not get it back on the road.

BernardL said...

With the multiple codes, especially the 2104 & 2111 combination, you'll have to replace the electronic throttle body and the throttle position sensor. Sorry, but you'll be back on your way to the MIL's house in no time once those are replaced if nothing else shows up in the meantime, Nick. :)

Nick D said...

Thanks for your expert opinion! I just ordered the parts and hopefully I'll have them installed by the weekend. The Service Engine Soon went off but I'm going to change that stuff anyway just in case. I wouldn't want to get stuck at the mother-in-law's!

Rob said...

I skipped thru all the post because thank God I think I've found someone that knows something. My 99 Expedition has problems only from take off at slow speeds. Kind of bogs then picks up and goes just fine until I have to stop and go again. Mec wants to check the coils but (and 1 might be bad) i don't think thats what it is. I am by no means a wealthy man so any help i can get is greatly appreciated.
stewart1096@gmail.com and thank you in advance.

Rob said...

P.S. its a 5.4 and no check light and the only code that came up was the egr sensor and that has been replace.

BernardL said...

Rob, if you have any of those coils bad you must get rid of the misfire before you can go on with any other diagnostic. Whether you're wealthy or not, the job still has to be done in a basic order. Guessing will not help and can get very expensive. As I've noted when I do a tune up on one of these I replace all the coils along with the spark plugs. It's expensive but burning out the catalytic converters due to misfires on the Expedition is three times as expensive. A misfire will set a code though.

The 1999 Expedition is not one I've found with pattern failure for the throttle position sensor. They do have a problem with where the wiring harness runs behind the intake manifold. The idle air control failed quite frequently on those but that usually causes stalling, not missing or hesitation. Use of low quality fuel causing injector trouble can cause a tip in problem. Make sure to check all grounds and power lead connections for any corrosion too.

Rob said...

Changed fuel filter and found it to be more then just a bit dirty.(Looked like straight varnish)
Now I know it was parked for a long time before I bought it. It still has its, im going to call it a hiccup but its so shadowed by the major increase in horse power. going to have to clean out the tank or just replace it with a cleaner junk yard tank. Also made an appointment to take it in to the only good place I could find. Thank you for the help and wish me luck.

BernardL said...

It seems like you're on the right track, Rob. If you have the tank cleaned or replaced please put a new OEM fuel pump in it too. I hope running good fuel through there from a clean source will undo any damage with plugged up injectors. Thanks for the update. Fuel is a big factor to be considered in any no code problem.

Jason said...

2006 ford expedition stalling and white smoke at start up. no loss of coolant.

BernardL said...

Sorry, Jason, but I'm not a mind-reader or a magician. I'd need a lot more to go on than that to give you any kind of advice. The white smoke may be a very serious deal. Pull off your oil filler cap and look at the underside of it. If there is a creamy substance there then no matter whether you're losing coolant or not it means you are having some head gasket problems. The stalling may or may not be related. You didn't mention any codes either.

Will B. said...

Bernard, I haven't read all of the posts, but my 05' expedition is doing some of the things mentioned. Would the TPS cause the truck not to start? I had it started twice since it went down, and it would idle very rough. I also tried pressing on the pedal to rev the engine, but got nothing. I got 6 different codes from a diagnostic machine I rented, and two of them mentioned the TPS. Any advice would greatly be appreciated.

Will B. said...

BTW, Just wanted to say how I appreciate what you are doing. It is very nice to see someone give advice w/ out a $30 dollar fee like some of these sites. And incase you were wondering, the other codes say TAC system is in FMEM mode of forced limited RPM. TAC system stuck open. EMC fault flag is set Indicating motor ciruit is open-cycle ignition key. Again, any advice is much appreciated.

BernardL said...

It appears you have an electronic throttle body failure, Will B, but you should have listed the codes. Some may hint at other failures or a combination. I'd recommend reading over the posts. There are a number of 05's like yours with multiple code problems I've already addressed.

JimL said...

Hi Bernard.
Thanks for all of this fantastic info! I have a '05 Expedition that about a year ago had the same problems as mentioned here, mainly the limp mode at medium speeds on the freeway with the "Check Electronic Throttle Control" message. After reviewing your website, I decided to give a new TPS a shot before taking it in. Fantastically, this cured the problem and I did not have anymore problems, until now.
Again, I'm having a regular occurance of my vehicle going into limp mode on the freeway with the "Check Electronic Throttle Control" message. It idles fine but drives a bit sluggish since the first reoccurance of the "limp mode". I haven't had it checked out yet, but it's looking like I'll have to do that. What would cause a TPS to go bad? It certainly doesn't seem like this should happen again only a year after replacement. May need throttle assembly replaced?

BernardL said...

If you have multiple codes as has been described in past comments, Jim, you may have an electronic throttle control gone bad. It may not be the replacement TPS.

Jason said...

2006 expedition 5.4. rough idle, stalls at stops, original code was 301, i replaced coil pack on cylinder 1 and all plugs. plug on cylinder 1 had small piece broken off electrode, i'm assuming this might be the problem now. i'm not getting misfire codes but it is running rough and smokes at start up for about 10 seconds. i also replaced injector on cylinder 1 and it helped alot but now is smoking again and rough running.i have no loss of coolant, only code is 174,i cant find a vacuum leak?i ran a scanner and it shows everything is good, cats and everything come back ok? now it wont even turn over almost like in fail safe mode?

Jason said...

also the exhaust has some black soot on the ground with the condensation that comes out? bad cats? but no code for cats?

BernardL said...

Jason, I'm sorry but you need to take the vehicle into a professional to be diagnosed. White smoke could be coolant or oil. Lean codes like the 174 could be an electric fuel pump going out or failing injectors. You're at a point now that throwing parts at it is not the answer.

Jason said...

i did put some e85 in thinking it would clean the injectors, it is not a flex fuel vehicle, possible thats the issue? i thought white smoke could be unburned fuel?

Jason said...

also would that small piece of the electrode that broke cause all this? thanks for your help

BernardL said...

It's not possible for me to say one way or another from here, Jason. A broken off piece of electrode could have caused cylinder wall and ring damage which could be the white smoke you're seeing. It's usually accompanied by engine noise though too.

Anonymous said...

Bernard, as others have stated, your insight and help is greatly appreciated. Based on past threads on your site, I already know what to do, but was wondering why you insist on OEM parts vs. less expensive warrantied aftermarket TPS's from Oreilly or Autozone. Thanks again. Jeff

BernardL said...

Someone changing parts on their personal vehicle can experiment with other than OEM sensors and high end electrical parts that are part of the information gateway to the on-board computer, Jeff. I can't. Because of intricate calibrations and quality control I go with OEM on anything related to on-board computer electronics.

For example, say you have a problem with an 06 Ford of your own and you're guessing it's the TPS. You change it with an Autozone TPS and it still doesn't work right. Even a professional would hesitate to condemn the new part. After wasting time going back over all their testing data a pro would mumble a few choice words and order another new TPS. A DIY'er would logically assume the new TPS was fine and possibly change hundreds of dollars worth of other parts while all along they got a bad one out of the box. I know it has happened to someone but in over three decades I've never had a bad OEM electrical part out of the box. In addition to that if you use the VIN number or number right off the part you get the right part. After market sensors may look and fit but not be right.

edgar said...

bernard my 06 expedition has been stalling on the road with a message of "engine fail safe mode" took it to the dealership. no codes were found but told me it needed a new throttle body as well as a decarb. reading through posts i see the tps is the most common problem. should i replace the tps first before paying hundreds on a new throttle body?

BernardL said...

As you've probably read in the other posts, Edgar, that is what I do at my shop with the customer's permission - especially in no code situations. It is strange you went into fail safe mode without the computer setting a code.

b said...

Hello Bernard, Ive got a doozy for you.
Last week my Spark plug blew right out of the cylinder head. I had it towed the dealership i bought it from (a mom and pop dealer).
after 3 days they said it was ready to be picked up. I picked it up last night and the service engine light was on. today i went to parts store and got a scanner. 4 codes were found...what the heck?
p0113 , p0102, p0122, p0401. all those codes seam related to intake and tps issues. so i figured maybe they didnt plug the MAF sensor back in. so I pop the hood and OH MY GOD!!! Instead of rethreading the head they wedged a muffler clamp hose between what looks like the fuel rail and spark plug to just hold it in. Mind you they charged me 250 dollars for this! is this even legal ? not to mention there were numerous screws missing and they cracked the engine cover. Unbelievable. I called the owner just now and he said they were just trying to save me money :) can this even be legal? Ill try to post sopme images i took but my html coding isnt very good. what are your thought? Oh and the application is a 2000 ford expedition 5.4L triton V8. Sorry cant add photos but the links are legit.

http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i392/mobeusone/IMG_20110311_151527.jpg?t=1299875157

http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i392/mobeusone/IMG_20110311_151455.jpg?t=1299875783

http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i392/mobeusone/IMG_20110311_151657.jpg?t=1299875824

http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i392/mobeusone/IMG_20110311_151736.jpg?t=1299875850

http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i392/mobeusone/IMG_20110311_151803.jpg?t=1299875884

BernardL said...

I have no comment b other than you paid $250 to have your vehicle mangled. Your only option is to tow it in to a reputable professional and get ready for a bill many times what you paid to mangle it.

b said...

well it runs fine now except a little roughness at idle( not noticeable on the tach) I was just wondering if
a) i had a right to ask for a refund
b) can they be reported to the NYS DMV because they are a liscenced repair facility if they refuse to coperate?
c) could the cob job have caused thos particular codes...seeings how im sure the seal around the spark plug is not good.
d) dont I loose compression if the seal isnt 100 % ?

BernardL said...

The answer to all those questions is I don't know and you're ignoring my advise. Your vehicle is in desperate need of repair. Please don't add anymore comments here on this. I'll have to delete them. You're welcome to e-mail me but there's not much more I can tell you. No professional garage in the country would have jammed the plug into place.

dan said...

Hi Bernard
we have a 2006 expedition w/5.4L and it started running rough -limited power
check engine light came on - throttle position sensor
I just replace TPS now the engine won't run at all
it was pretty straight forward repair any ideas what I may have done wrong?
I used borg warner tps from Advance Auto not OEM part from Ford
do you think the problem is with the aftermarket part?
thanks

BernardL said...

I don't believe in coincidences, Dan. Either you didn't engage the TPS correctly and forced it in or you have a bad one out of the box from Borg Warner. Put your old one back on, engaged properly, and see if your vehicle starts. If it does, then get an OEM TPS from Ford. If your vehicle doesn't start you'll have to have it taken to a professional for diagnosis.

dan said...

could you please give me some insight to the engagement?
the shaft off the throttle body goes in the slot in the tps
is there a certain way to do it
it seemed straight forward

BernardL said...

That's the way it goes, Dan. Did you try the original part to see if your Expedition would start with the old TPS?

dan said...

not yet still at work
I'll try it tonight

dan said...

turned out the new tps was defective
the store would refund me so I had to go to another location that had one in stock to swap
installed it and it appears all is good
aftermarket part saved a little $$ but cost me time and frustration
next time I'll start with oem

BernardL said...

Thanks for the update, Dan. If you do develop a similar problem, change that aftermarket TPS first.

Will said...

Bernard, I was trying to replace my TPS on my 05 Expedition, but there was a hose infront of the screws and I wasn't able to get the bit straight with the screws. I tried using a small ratchet but I didn't have enough room between the hose above the TPS and the air filter cover. Do you have any advice that could help me get to the TPS screws? Thanks in advance.

BernardL said...

Will, you can put the torx bit in the screw head and use a ratchet wrench on the bit. Don't mess up the fastener head if you can't figure out a way to do it.

dan said...

Hi Will
I thought it was easier to take the throttle body off to get to the sensor
disconnect the hoses that are in the area use a deep well socket to take out the 4 bolts that hold the air box then 4 bolts that hold the throttle body

Will said...

Thanks Dan...

Hank said...

Bernard,

"It's common for the vehicle to go through an idle relearn after battery replacement if a keep alive memory device wasn't used. The check engine light normally doesn't go on though."

I removed the TB to clean on my '06Expedition and after replacing it and reconnecting the battery, I now have both the check engine and electronic throttle sensor lights on. I disconnected the battery once again, the lights wete off, but once I step on the gas pedal, the electronic throttle sensor light comes on. Then the check engine light comes on as well. Is this an idle relearning issue, and if so how long does it take or what else do I need to do to get rid of the lights? Or do you have any other ideas as to what the issue might be?

Thanks
Hank

BernardL said...

You'll need to find out what codes are being set, Hank. If you're getting multiple Throttle Body codes you'll probably have to replace it and the TPS with OEM parts. The cleaning may have simply triggered a failure that was already going to happen.

mari said...

Hi bernard, im having a similar problem with my 2005 ford expedition e.b. 5.4L . Its showing me the engine light, and having stallin issues.. when im driving on highway runs fine, but when im stopping at a light or parkin or trying to reverse it turns off, I put it on park and turn on and stars fine again..so my brother read about cleaning the body throttle, and decided to do that, he removed black plastic that covers the engine where it says 5.4L v3 triton, he disconnected the cables, the tps sensor and the ones on the other side.. So he took it out and cleaned it , it was really dirty.. So then he put everything back on the way it was,after he was done he made sure everything was good and all cables conected the way it was, the last thing to connect was the battery cable.. So now the truck wont turn on!!! He turns the key to start but immediately turns off, It sounds like if its gonna start but turns off in a second.. And he tried turning the key to start and accelerating but its not accelerating and turns off immediately, but when he turns the key back, he presses the acelerator pedal and we can hear it opening and closing on the body throttle, but like I said when he trys to turn it on and accelerating to try to see if it stays on , it wont accelerate and immediately turns off, and now its also showing the message check electronic throttle, which I didnt have before..do u have any idea what the problem is, wat can be done? or something he might have done wrong ? A friend of him told us that maybe we have to clear or reset the codes.. Is that something that could help? I will appreciate any help u might have.. Thanks.

BernardL said...

Mari, I can't diagnose your vehicle from the Internet. It may be by disconnecting the battery your brother triggered the security system. Also, the throttle cleaning seldom works and cleaning it may have been the final straw.

You now have two choices. You can have it towed to a professional for diagnosis and repair - make sure your brother explains in detail what he did.

The other option is to take the battery out and charge it fully, replace the electronic throttle control and throttle position sensor with OEM parts, reconnect the battery, turn the key on for ten minutes to allow body control computer to relearn settings with out turning key to start, then turn key off and then turn to start, hope for the best. If it still won't start you must take it in somewhere for diagnosis.

If I were you I'd take it in now rather than guess.

mari said...

Hi bernard, thanks for replying to my comment.. ok so before I replace any parts , I decided to get the truck checked out like u recommended.. A family friend mecanic came to take a look at it, and ran the scan tool on it, it showed 3 codes, p2104 p2111 p2135 and it showed him a message that said throttle acutator, something like that.. So from the comments I read on your blog, I see these codes have to do with the throttle.. So im thinking about replacing the tps sensor first and see if that was the problem, if the problem still remains then the next step I guess its replace throttle body??... What do u think, ill apreciate any helpful advice you might have..im just based on what I have read about this.. Thanks for the helpful comments u have given us, this really helps out many of us that had no idea about this problem with ford vehicles. Ford needs to do something about this, its a very dangerous thing to drive a vehicle like that.. Ok well thanks again bernard, and apreciate any advice u can give me..

Jory Schlink said...

Ok this is a little off topic but i have an 07 f 150 4.6l and i have a new throttle body i ordered from summit for my truck but that throttle body only works on 04-06 motors. do you know if the the 06 and 07 have the same wiring? i know that on the 07 the motor is on the left side of the throttle body while on the 06 it is on the right. theTB bolts up just fine its just the motor and the black covers are different. so back to my question... do u happen to know if it will work? ford wont tell me a straight up answer. they say to just leave it stock but i kind of have my mind set on trying to make this work

Jory Schlink said...

i forgot to add this is an aftermarket throttle bod by BBK its the 75mm one . thanks an advance

BernardL said...

Jory, the simple answer is no, don't do it. Send the aftermarket back. Get an OEM throttle body from Ford and put it back together the way it was engineered.

Anonymous said...

I have a 2005 expedition with real issues that no one can diagnose. I am astonished as I read this blog....so many others with the same problems. It all started with the car not starting....had it towed to the dealer and when the went to check it...it started for them??? go fiqure...they put it on the computer but it didn't show anything...so I took it home....couple of days later it stalls in the middle of a busy intersection. Have it towed again. Dealer pc didn't read anything because it started on the first try for them again. So he decided to change the fuel module. On my way home on the highway the truck started bogging, we have to let go of the acelerator and then push it again to continue driving. The air bag light has now come on. Took it back to the dealer and they said they don't know what it is and there is not much they can do until the check engine light comes on. They reset the air bag sensor so the light turned off. So we drove it like that. One year later to the day I pull out of the driveway and the throttle feels weird, made it down the street and then a had a terrible smell and funny noise. Turned back home and by the time I reached the driveway it sounded like something was jumping in my engine. Took it to a garage,they changed the spark plugs, alternater and replace all of the broken belts. My truck still hesitates at around 50k and just yesturday I had power but couldn't go over twenty. Check engine throttle came on. Turned car off and on two times and then it went away. I am so tired.....ford needs to take responsibility for their product...I cant believe how many people are experiencing this.

BernardL said...

The first trouble you had that the dealer said they'd have to wait for the check engine light to come on again or the symptoms to repeat is true IF the computer did not set a code. It is very possible the fuel module was the problem, especially if you went a year without a problem.

Vehicles do require maintenance. From what I can make of your description of what the other garage did, you had a belt failure from a frozen alternator bearing.

As to your problem now, it's very possible either the throttle position sensor or electronic throttle body are giving you trouble. Again, the computer diagnostics would need to be done. If multiple codes such as you've read in previous posts come up both the TPS and Throttle Body should be replaced. If you have only codes relating to the Throttle Position Sensor you may be able to only replace it.

Matthew Nowlin said...

People should keep in mind that when there are millions of a certain type of vehicle on the road, it is inevitable that there will be problems with some!

253 comments does not a recall make!

BernardL said...

That's right, Matt, and most if not all of the comments concern vehicles out of warranty. I know it doesn't make the owner feel better, but unfortunately, parts do go bad. Thanks for the input.

Susan said...

I too have a 2005 Expedition and I am having some trouble I am hoping someone can shed some light on. It started with the truck shaking and sputtering when it was idling. I started driving and it went away for a couple of minutes and then came back worse and the check engine light started flashing. I pulled over right away and shut it down. I had it towed to a repair shop and was told the codes said that fuel injector #5 was bad. They replaced that and called me to pick it up. I paid my $240 bill and drove 45 miles and ended up broke down on the side of freeway. While on the freeway driving I first noticed that my check gauge light was on and I had no oil pressure? I got over to the right lane so I could get off the next exit to check my oil. Within seconds my check engine light came on and the truck started shaking again (just like the first time). I pulled it over immediately and shut the truck off. I had it towed back to the shop and was told it was throwing different codes this time. They said it was now throwing codes for cylinder #3 misfiring and that they were going to look into it and call me back. I got a call an hour later asking what kind of oil my husband used on the oil change we had done a month prior and told them we used what it said on the cap and also the Lucas additive. He said the Lucas additive possible ruined my engine? Every other mechanic I have spoke to has said NO it would not destroy my engine. Any chance you know what this problem could be??

BernardL said...

Susan, I'm sorry, but it's impossible to diagnose your Expedition here on the Internet. I don't know why the shop claimed Lucas oil additive could have ruined the engine. Although I don't use it, I've never heard of it ruining the engines it's put in. The injector the shop replaced should not have affected the oil pressure unless a leak caused all the oil to drain while you were driving it. I'm afraid the time to pull your Expedition to the side of the road was the moment you noticed the oil pressure drop. You didn't mention any engine noise, and no oil pressure should have caused metallic tapping noises as the lifters bled down. I think you may need to tow your vehicle to another shop for a second opinion.

Anonymous said...

My wife has a 2006 Ford Freestyle SEL 3.0 liter. 2wd. About one month ago at 55,500 miles the car went into "limp" mode and kicked on the wrench light. I downloaded the fault and had to do with throttle position. I then turned key foward, put weight on the gas pedal to open the butterfly on the throttlebody and cleaned it out. Reset the code and all is good. Here a month later she is on the highway going about 65 mph and the car suddenly went right into the limp mode again kicking on the engine light and she was only able to go about ten mph with pedal fully pressed. As soon as I got there I turned the car on. Would not start just by turning the key, I had to hold the pedal down. Once started the car would idle and seemed to be bouncing between 700 & 900 RPM. Pressing the gas pedal did not make any difference as it would not rev. I shut the engine off, hooked up the downloader and pulled a P2111 Throttle Actuator Cntrl Sys Stuck Open and P2104 Throttle Actuator Cntrl Sys Forced Idle. I tried clearing the faults and even tried disconnecting the battery and hooking back up. As soon as I start the car again go's right into limp mode with the same exact hard faults. I am leaning towards changing the Throttle Body Assembly. I am wondering if there is a factory reset proceedure for this Throttle Body? Also if I replace the Throttle Body Assembly is it going to be just a remove replace or is there any resetting proceedures I will need to be aware of with either the Throttle Body or ECU? Thanks

BernardL said...

Anon, there will be a number of drive cycles after you replace the throttle body and TPS sensor where the computer will relearn the different settings. You don't have to do anything special unless it starts kicking out other codes after the repair.

gpisano01 said...

I tried to pull up my driveway and there was no power. The engine sounds fine and is not spuratically reving. I coasted back in reverse and put it back in drive to get back up the driveway. Then a message saying "check electroic throttle control" appeared and the OD light lit up and said Off.
I am on limited funds. The pictures of the throttle position sensor on your page is $250? What should I replace or do first?

BernardL said...

gpisano01, anything you do without a diagnosis will be a guess. It will be least expensive to try changing the throttle position sensor first, but if that does not fix the problem, you will have to take your vehicle in for diagnosis or gamble with changing the electronic throttle body next after the TPS. Unfortunately, your vehicle doesn't care whether you have limited funds. If the cure is replacing the more expensive throttle body you will have to park it until you have the money for repair. You could find a place in your area like Autozone where they will read the codes for free if you can get the vehicle to run at all.

gpisano01 said...

It almost feels like the transmission is slipping a gear. Is that a symptom of the TPS or throttle body being bad?

BernardL said...

gpisano01, that's why the basic checks, including fuel pressure, power & ground connections, ignition, and computer scans are so important. Throttle position sensor or throttle body problems can make it seem as if the transmission is slipping. If the engine races in rpm in gear but moves no where, it very well may be a trans problem. These vehicles have the same technology advances as the space shuttle. You can make some intelligent gambles with basic diagnostic code checks, but even that is a gamble. Naturally, if you're getting throttle codes, that has to be addressed first.

Miguelangel said...

hi have a 06 f 150 5.4l am changing the tps sensor due to about 45-50 kicks/hesitation then drives normal with scan tool reading data absolute tps jumps from about 25% to 68% then when it goes back to normal it's at 28%
well question i have is i ohmed out the old sensor through the sweep does have that skip but new sensor from autozone and ford has no difference in resistance in the sweep is that normal?

BernardL said...

Miguelangel, you can't trust the ohm meter sweep method anymore. Change the TPS with a Ford OEM one. I'm not saying it's impossible to get a bad one from Ford, but I haven't and I've changed a lot of them. If you still have the problem after putting a new OEM TPS in, you may have a bad electronic throttle body, depending on what codes it's setting.

Daniel said...

Hi Bernard, I have a 2004 F150 with a 5.4 L 3V and I have strange problem that nobody can seem to figure out. My truck has about 80000 miles. When im accelerating lightly (like trying to save gas style driving and really no matter how you drive it, but worse this way) and the truck shifts into 2nd gear, the truck will start to accelerate normally but then the rpms will drop despite my increased throttle input. The truck feels like its bogging down and then all of a sudden it will pick back up and throw me back in the seat like its trying to match the increased throttle input I put in it to make it accelerate. After that the truck accelerates fine. I do notice the same problem when its in OD and im costing down a hill and then I pick the throttle back up. It seems to be worse with the A/C on and the truck is at normal operating temp. Also the higher the A/C is turned up and the hotter it is outside, the worse it gets! There are no codes whatsoever! Im lost! Thanks for your help!

BernardL said...

Daniel, even though it's not setting codes, your F150 may have a dead spot in your Throttle Position Sensor. You did not state what if anything the other people who looked at it did. You also didn't write about whether you have any problems after you get past the bad spot. If the truck runs at full power with no miss or cutting out after you reach a certain throttle position my guess would be a bad TPS.

Daniel said...

Bernard, the other mechanics checked the fuel pressures and they were fine so they reflashed tge pcm. None of it worked. It drives fine after it gets past that certain point except for when you are in overdrive and give it more gas, it boggs a little before it accelerates. Either I don't notice it or it skips over the dead spot, it does fine in 1st gear, 3rd and 4th. It also revs fine in neutral and park. Just when your driving there's a problem. Like I said earlier the A/C and the outside temp make it worse. Almost can't run max A/C.

BernardL said...

Daniel, then if I had to take a guess I'd change the TPS. I'm surprised with the dead spot you describe why you or your mechanic hasn't tried a new OEM TPS already.

Daniel said...

Well to be honest, I've had my suspicions but I didn't want to just start changing parts. Since I've talked to you I already ordered a brand new motorcraft tps sensor and should have it tomorrow. Im like you, I think that will help. The reason I hadn't already was because it seemed to get worse with the A/C on and worse the hotter it was outside so I've been leaning on the side of an idle air control problem but since its all built in to the throttle body I thought about changing that but the TPS is a lot cheeper so I will change that and see what happens! After talking to you I believe its the TPS too. Im assuming the TPS would acount for the A/C on and is making my problem show up more than with it off! Thanks for your help Bernard!!

BernardL said...

The AC changes throttle position due to load, which will have a tendency to change where the dead spot shows up or would make it worse - same with heat & electrical devices. I hope it works for you, Daniel, but as you already surmised, you have to start somewhere.

Scott said...

Sorry if I missed this if already posted. I have a 2006 E350 5.4l that will die at times at stops. Pulled the codes and got P2105 and U0300. Any clues other then the throttle actuator? Thanks

BernardL said...

That's an odd code combo, Scott. You didn't mention what has been done to the vehicle in the way of tune-ups, mileage, or if you tried the electronic throttle body. A crank angle sensor can cause a sudden shutdown. If you've never serviced the spark plugs and individual coil assemblies, that's another possibility. Also the ignition power coil relay could possibly cause the shutdown.

danny said...

hi i some issues with my 2004 f150 fx4 5.4 check engine came on also the wrench light ran codes and p2106 and p0158 im starting small changed the air fillter cleaned the maf and erased the codes after 45min codes come back im wondering if i change the tps do i need a reflash from dealer and has any body resolve those codes thx

Victor said...

Hi Bernard, I have an 2006 V6 Explorer 4x4. When I turn on the AC the engine seems to run a bit. It sounds like the engine is reving up to fast and acceleration suffers. When I turn off the AC the issues goes away. Shall I change the TPS ??? The AC pumps cold air, so I am assuming the AC pump is good and I can hear the clutch engage when I turn it on. What can the issue be ??

-Victor

BernardL said...

A bad spot in a Throttle Position Sensor can cause what you describe, Victor. First off, the computer does increase the idle speed slightly when you turn on your AC and some power loss may be noted on acceleration. Secondly, there's no way I can diagnose your vehicle from here. You can guess at it and change the TPS, but without going through proper diagnostics that will be what it is: a guess.

Victor said...

The computer was flashed recently. The truck was smashed from the front while parked in a hit and run. The repair shop repaired tranny damage and reflashed the computer. Also this started to happen way before the accident so I can probably rule out the computer. To place it in better perspective. The truck sounds like the large trucks that are accelerating and you can hear the fans and engine very loud. I know a loss of power is expected, but the loud noise from the fans and engine reving high have me worried. I will replace the TPS and see if that works. Its the least expensive option right now.

BernardL said...

Victor, that noise you describe where the engine revs but the vehicle doesn't seem to power out can have a couple of physical causes. The transmission is one culprit. The other is if the catalytic converters are plugged up. One of the basic tests I do with that type problem is an exhaust back pressure test - especially if there are no codes and the sound is a deep throated roar like noise on accel. I hope it's the TPS for you.

Erica said...

I have similar problems associated w/the tp sensor comments posted. I have a 05 explorer and the wrench light came on and check engine light w/slight loss of power twice in 2 wks. I got the codes checked and I got P2106 tp sensor and po320 crankshaft positon sensor. any ideas? can 1 trigger the other?

Thanks.

BernardL said...

Erica, the PO320 is not a crankshaft sensor code. It is a code meaning - Ignition Engine Speed Input Circuit Malfunction. Loose wires or a bad crankshaft sensor might cause this code and somehow trigger the P2106, but also an arching secondary ignition (coils, plugs, wires) can also cause this code.

In some cases where the P2106 Code is present and a new TPS is needed, the computer may need to be reflashed or the Electronic Throttle Body must be replaced. If you're set on guessing rather than getting your vehicle checked professionally, I would first make sure all ignition maintenance has been performed before changing anything.

Erica said...

Thank you for responding. It only seems to loose power for a 1/2 second and not really accelerate. I have had no starting problems or excessive cranking. But the small stutter seems to become more frequent and i have noticed that it only seems to do this when the A/C is on. I will try to get it looked at as soon as possible but i was wondering if it is any of the problems you suggested, would it still be safe to drive. Also should i not purchase the crank and tp sensor that came up as Auto zone suggested?

Erica said...

Oh yeah. It sounds alot like what http://www.blogger.com/profile/09823266108510849423(Daniel)described except the crank sensor thing that came up

BernardL said...

Erica, as you've probably read in other comments I can neither fix your vehicle over the Internet, nor can I tell you whether it's safe to drive. I can tell you I would never buy an aftermarket sensor from Autozone. I buy OEM Ford sensors for Fords. Your stutter on acceleration could be the TPS or a secondary ignition miss caused by the ignition components I mentioned in my last post to you.

Erica said...

Obviously I wouldn't expect you to be able to fix it. I just wanted to see if It would cause further damage by driving it to my mechanic. Ford OEM it is. Thank you for the advice.

BernardL said...

It’s not that obvious, Erica. You asked me if I thought it would be safe to drive your vehicle to a shop. How would I be able to determine that over the Internet? My comments concerning my abilities as a mechanical soothsayer were not meant to insult you. I get E-mails constantly in addition to direct blog comments asking similar impossibilities. I’m happy to answer any questions concerning what I’ve blogged about, which originally was a pattern failure on Expedition TPS and Throttle Body failures, and even other unrelated Ford questions. There is a limit though. As an illustration for all, what if I told you sure, it’s okay to drive your Explorer to a shop, but the stutter you described was a leaking injector and your Explorer caught fire on the way? As stated, this is my way of explaining my remarks and not a putdown of your comment.

I get hundreds of hits a day on this Expedition post alone. I know repair costs are astronomical and any information you can find on the Web helps. I hope you get the Explorer fixed without any continuing problems.

Victor said...

I ordered a new Motorcraft TPS. All I could find locally were aftermarket. I really don't trust them to much. What are the steps to replace and adjust the sensor? Do I just remove and replace or is there a specific way of doing this? Thanks

-Victor

Anonymous said...

Bernard,

You previously helped me on a TPS issue (thank you) and I now have another problem that has cropped up on my wife's '05 Expedition 5.4. About 6 mos. ago, I got a P0430 code on the vehicle. After each of the O2 sensors checked out good on a bench test, I went ahead and replaced both cats with Magnaflow brand units. The gentleman who installed them reset the code and everything was fine until just recently when the CEL came on. I now get P0420 and P0430 codes. Seems coincidental that codes for both banks would trigger at the same time. Researching the net, I am wondering if I have other problems; I have read that bad coils can cause misfire and trash the cat or cause O2 sensors to trigger codes, but I am not getting any bad coil codes. The vehicle has 205K on it and about a year back a mechanic replaced the plugs and three coils. Any ideas on where to start? thanks again - Jeff

BernardL said...

You're right, Jeff, if the engine is misfiring it will ruin the cats. It's also correct that a misfire would set a code and you would notice by the way it runs.

I can only give you a couple of basics. I never use after market cats on Ford OBDII systems. Secondly, bench testing oxygen sensors is a hit & miss deal. Scanner data is the only sure way to know what readings the computer is seeing from the oxygen sensors.

If the vehicle is running great with no other symptoms you have only a couple courses of action. If the oxygen sensors have never been replaced it would be good maintenance with over two hundred thousand miles on it to replace them with FORD OEM Oxygen Sensors. If you still get cat codes then you have defective cats. There must be some clue though with scanner info. If the front oxygen sensor readings are varying and the after cat ones are more fixed even on the road then it would point toward the cats working but not to the specs for Ford OBDII. My guess is it's the aftermarket cats.

The key to all this is whether the vehicle is running great in spite of the cat eff. codes.

Anonymous said...

I have a 2005 expidition that would not go when you give it gas and gave the throttle body error. turn it off and start it back up and ran fine. now idles a little ruogh and dies somtimes when I slow down. had a mechanic look at it and said neede throttle body and wanted $700 for the part. I went and bought one from ford place and put it on myself. now idles real bad and wont go. I thought it was a plug and go. Is that if you just put the sensor on and not the whole throttle body?

BernardL said...

Anon, I wouldn't blame the plug and play just yet. It's possible you didn't do the job right. I'm sorry, but it may be time to take your vehicle into a pro who can scan the readings and find out what's wrong.

Anonymous said...

Hi Bernard,

In response to your question about my June 26th post about O2/Cat codes, the vehicle seems to be running great, i.e. it starts fine and runs as smoothly as always. One caveat, I had a couple coils go out a year back and never really knew they were out until it ran rough and I don't remember if the CEL went on for that. In the end, we took it to a local shop and spent $2K to replace the spark plugs and three coils. After that, I decided to be a DIY mechanic so I could afford to feed my family.

If another coil was out, would it be sending a code? That's why I asked the coil question in my original posting. I would't want to replace the cats again only to have bad coil(s) ruin them.

Finally, in your response, you mention scanner data. Is that done by the dealer? Maybe that't the way to go to ID this problem.

As usual, thanks for your great insight and the personal time you take to help out others.

Jeff

BernardL said...

$2K for spark plugs and three coils is pretty steep, Jeff. I sell a package deal on those when I do a tune-up. If the spark plug threads are good, I replace the spark plugs, all coils, air filter, gas filter, and pcv valve and hose for around $1100. That insulates the customer and me from the other coils missing after the tune.

Scanner data helps immensely when dealing with an intermittent problem. Yes, other missing coils can ruin the cats, but they do set misfire codes. The dealer would have the scanner equipment for determining an intermittent misfire and crucial oxygen sensor readings for checking catalytic converters health, but so do many independent shops. Without having it checked thoroughly, you'll be taking a chance parts changing with no direction.

vinbo said...

I have a 2006 E-250 SD w/5.4 setting p2107 and p2110. Replaced the tps and had same results. Read your blog and found many useful tips that I am persuing, but if you have any more advice, I will chek your site to find out what else to do.

BernardL said...

Three things to consider with those codes, vinbo -

1. Check the wiring harness very carefully on the driver's side of the engine where it goes over the EGR tube. It's possible the harness has chaffed on the heat shielding where it is routed too close to the tube or damaged by heat from the tube.

2. If you have an ignition miss due to bad coils or plugs, they can set erroneous throttle codes.

3. It may be you have a bad electronic throttle body, but check that harness carefully as in #1.

BLAK DES.S design studio said...

Bernard, I have an 89 5.0 Mustang. I have noticed many of the symptoms of this TPS Sensor. Also, I tried pulling codes using the STI method, and since then; if the car does not start, I jump the wires again, using the STI method, and the car starts right up again. Any thoughts or suggestions?

BernardL said...

Blak, an 89 needs to be diagnosed with basics first before condemning anything or throwing parts at it. Compression, ignition, exhaust back-pressure and fuel pressure and fuel quality all need to be checked along with the codes using a scanner. Vacuum leaks can cause all manner of problems with those. Your catalytic converter could be plugged solid. A myriad of things could be wrong with it. Without basic step by step testing you will be shooting in the dark.

2005 Exp. Eddie said...

Hey Benard,

2005 Ford Expedition Eddie Bauer. 122k miles.

I get Engine Code P0506. IDLE Control RPM to low. When the car is in park it idles fine, but when in gear (reverse or drive) at lower speeds when truck is barely starting to roll, it stalls slightly but recovers. Through my research I was told TPS or entire throttle body.

Ford/DEALER says that the issue with up/down rpm and stalling at near ilde speeds is the thorttle body motor, not the TPS. According to Ford, the TPS sends signal and throttle body motor controls idle. Ford say that the entire throttle body needs to be replaced, to the tune of $350 + labor.

Is there a way to clean this motor with break cleaner or something simular? On my chevy i was able to spray brake cleaner in the intake and it fixed my issue.

thank you in advance

BernardL said...

You can clean them, but in the case of the electronic throttle body, it won't do any good. I'm afraid you'll have to take the dealer's advice, Eddie.

Anonymous said...

i was on along trip with the fam and o the way back my 99 explorer engine code E started to act odd.. it would cruise up to normal highway speeds the all of a sudden loose all throttle response rpms would streadily drop until the vehicle came to around 50mph then all of a sudden come right back then it would cruise fine.. problem persisted at a random pattern (random accept for the mph the issue occurs) no MIL light at all unless the engine died completly which is normal operation POEO. i tedted the TPS and it shows normal operation and i cant really afford the $30 TPS on a gamble

BernardL said...

Then you're out of luck, Anon. If you can't afford $30, then you won't have even a fraction of what it will cost to diagnose it properly at a shop. There are no cheap fixes out there other than you can try a tankful of good gas like 91 octane Chevron or Unocal gas and pray it helps. An OEM TPS sensor for your vehicle costs more than $30, and a diagnostic check will be in the $100 range and up. Your vehicle, as I've explained in detail to others in this comments section, has to be checked out starting with the basics: fuel pressure, compression, ignition, battery grounds and power connections, scanner data, etc.

Anonymous said...

if it helps once i turned the AC off in the vehicle it seemed to run fine i only found this out after i forgot to turn it back on after pulling over for a short while. it continued to run fine for atleast 2hrs after the AC was off

BernardL said...

Anon, you're not paying attention to what I wrote. I can't pinpoint what's wrong with your Explorer from the Internet. The AC on/off will change throttle position and load. everything from there is unknown without diagnostics.

Anonymous said...

Hi, I have a '05 Mercury Mountaineer and on 08/05/11 changed the tps. Since I have had problems with the vehicle wanting to crank. This morning (08/09/11) it would not turn over at all.

On 08/05/11 the first tps that was placed in vehicle it would not crank. I am wondering if this might be a bad part and have to get it changed out for a new one. Could you please give me some advice on this. Thanks Jen

BernardL said...

The TPS has nothing to do with your vehicle's cranking ability, Jen. There are a string of possibilities as to why it will not crank that would need a technician's diagnostic check to find which one is causing your problem: Security system, Battery connections, Battery, Starter motor, Engine problems, etc. Once the vehicle cranks normally, if it doesn't start, then that involves another set of possible culprits.

Anonymous said...

Ok call me obvious but if Ford made a defective TPS sensor because we all know how they love to buy junk from Thailand, Taiwan, etc. Then why would we want to put another POS Ford TPS sensor in our vehicle. Also Pepboys sells a lifetime warranty TPS for $79.99 If it's going to crap out on me wouldn't I rather be able to take it out and get a replacement with no questions asked and just pop it in and be on the road again rather then have the ford dealership rape me on the price and look at me like I'm stupid when their sensor fails? I work for the FAA in Micro electronics so I know that most all sensors purchased by Ford, Chrysler, and most of GM's are and have been garbage since the 80's!!!
They are the same crap you can find in Mitsubishi's.

BernardL said...

You are free to pursue the repair in any way you wish, Anon. I don't work for Ford, but over the decades I've worked fixing vehicles professionally I know that if I want to avoid trouble when replacing items like sensors I go OEM no matter the make.

abe duran said...

Hey Bernard, i just put a remanufacture engine on my 2004
f150 and everything works fine, except when i accelerate i feel and hear vivration on the pedal and the more i accelerate the stronger the vivration and the noise...mechanic said that the actuator motor on pedal was going bad... any info on this would be greatly apreciated....

BernardL said...

Abe, you don't mention codes or where the noise originates from, whether at the pedal itself, or exhaust, or in the engine compartment. They have had trouble with the electronic throttle body on those and that can cause a problem at the pedal. Also, you state your engine has been replaced. It's possible if you also have no power along with exhaust noise that you have plugged up catalytic converters from whatever engine misfires and problems you had before the engine replacement.

Abe duran said...

Thanks for info Bernard, but my truck is not trowing any codes, no engine light on, engine respond well, my only concern is the fact that before the engine replacement the pedal was fine and now is kind of anoing, even in park and idle speed vivrates and is noisy... I went underneath where the pedal is and i can hear the noise coming from the motor, wich in think is control by the computer....but then again im not an expert....i may take it to the stealership and maybe get a feeling of whats going on....

BernardL said...

Abe, the throttle is electronically controlled, so any resistance because the electronic throttle body is bad will make the pedal actuator work harder, possibly causing the noise. With the computer as the intermediary in this operation any loose grounds or power leads from when the motor was replaced can also give you problems. It may be just the pedal actuator motor, but I've only had to replace one of those and it wasn't because of noise.

abe duran said...

Ok...now, i'm going out of town tomorrow (around 400 mls), should i be worry about it? just wanna make sure....

BernardL said...

Think about it, Abe. How could I possibly know that?

Stewart196 said...

I have a 99 Expedition 5.4 2wd 140.000 miles and its had the same problem since I bought it a year ago. A sudden loss of power from take off much like a hiccup. (never dies out) Ive replaced the fuel pump with sending unit twice as they gave me the wrong part the first time and I didn't notice and in both cases the fuel gauge has a mind of its own never giving me an accurate reading. I will swap it out 1 more time to be certain but if its not the pump and float and I have replaced the TPS what could it be? Also something I have noticed is at high speed 55 + mph when I let off the gas I feel what could be a loss of power. This causes a pulling almost breaking feeling that slows me from my coasting. First thing that comes to my mind is ignition coils. Need to know best way for me to test them at home and also If I do end up having to replace the coils will have no choice but to use "after market" and in said case would it be best to change them all out with same brand or you think I would be able to get away with replacing the ones that are out? (Assuming thats the problem.) I will say, Yes I know I know but kids back to school and Obama in the White House make for hard times and I have to look at price and warranty. It makes me miss my 96 chevy silverado. Had 1.209.000 miles and never had a problem until a drunk driver decided to fix that for me. Called her "The bird shit express". Anyway thanks for any suggestions and in general. Its nice to know there is someone willing to just help.

BernardL said...

It could be anything, Stewart, without some diagnostic data to check for misfire or other codes. No, you won't be able to check the coils at home. In most instances, they break down on the road at load speed - not on a bench. When I do a major tune on those I replace all coils because they've had so much trouble with them - and as you've probably read in other comments I only use OEM parts for Ford sensor or coil replacement.

Ryan said...

Well, I have a TPS question. I've encountered them on a Jeep TJ and wonder if it applies here.
1998 ford expedition 5. 4L, at the beginning... it would lose power and speed would fluctuate regardless of how steady the throttle is held down. Then it would show bad mpg on the overhead readout, but punching the throttle above 3k rpm would take all hesitation away and clear it up. Codes come up both banks lean, but it doesn't do it at the same time. I have checked the egr circuit and have found nothing wrong. As of late, punching the throttle only drags it down more, but feathering the throttle will clear up the hesitation after a few pushes. Sounds vaguely familiar to the TJ. Any insight would be appreciated.

BernardL said...

Ryan, because both banks show lean I would have a fuel pressure check done, and have the connections checked for corrosion. I believe your electric fuel pump is going out.

Anonymous said...

Hi Bernard,
Iam Jose i drive a 2002 ford exploder 4.6 v8 engine, everytime a come to a stop, when i try to rev it wont accelerate but rpm rises then suddenly accelerates, what could be triggering this could be it be the TPS?

thanks a lot,,

BernardL said...

Jose, Ford has had a lot of trouble with the Explorer transmissions in the early 2000's. Without a lot of other data, it's impossible for me to know what's causing your problem. If it's the transmission, it's a very expensive repair, so get it in some where you can have your vehicle checked professionally.

Anonymous said...

seems like the transmission is ok had it changed 2 years ago, it shifts ok from 2nd to 3rd onwards its just from a stop that would not accelerate and at once its engine died on a full stop...
already changed the map sensor still the same hoping that it would only be the tps coz dont want to spend another $1800,and also did a transmission flush and filter done, so chances are would you think it would be the tps?

BernardL said...

I'm sorry, Jose, but you have no data, no codes, no basic check results, and those even have a complicated trans fluid level check procedure. They don't have a TPS pattern failure on the explorers in that year. You could even have a tank of bad gas or an idle air control problem, or a whole bunch of other things wrong. Parts changing by guess is expensive and can get you into more trouble than you're in already.

Anonymous said...

thanks bernard, i guess ill just have it checked... hoping its not to expensive
thanks....

Anonymous said...

Hi BernardL:
I have a 2001 Mazda Tribute (Ford Escape). Roughly a 3 mons. ago I began having issues while coasting... the idle would 'stick'(like being pushed from behind). when i would make full stop the idle would remain @ 1000 RPM instead of it's usual 500/600 rpm. if i turn the wheel while @ the light the idle will go back to normal. I have changed the TPS 2X and the problem would go away briefly only to return soon after. Both TPS sensors were after market. As it is I am losing my hair this issue is not helping...
any guidance would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance

BernardL said...

Anon, there is a recall on those for the speed cable. Here is a link to read about it:

http://www.faqs.org/car/mazda-tribute-2001/vehicle-speed-control/

Also on those, once the recall is done, and something similar still happens the throttle body has to be replaced. It's not a TPS problem.

JOHNNY said...

Serious problem that Ford can't fix. Just like everyone else my 05 f150 FX4 5.4 with 71,000 miles shuts down when it wants too. I get p2105 p2135, after 2 ford dealerships and $3000 in parts and trouble shooting I still get the same problem. Parts to list- new throttle body with new TPS, cleaned MAF, and to top it off brand new PCM/ECU all reflashed and all updated. Now i want to sell the truck but I cant, cause if i sell this to someone in this conditition ill get sued. It will stall after a stoplight or on and off the throttle, or at 20 to 70mph. The only thing I haven't changed is the throttle pedal sensor. What can his be, I have no clue where to bring it next.

BernardL said...

Johnny, the first question that comes to mind is why didn't you make the dealer fix the truck or refund your money? Here in California, if a shop gives an estimate for a job and the fix doesn't work they can't charge for experimenting. They did replace the parts that normally cause those codes though. All I can do is give you a few other possibilities.

1. Has Fuel Pressure been checked? Spark plugs and coils can cause throttle codes but normally set misfire codes too. If yours have been in there for over seventy thousand they could be the culprit.

2. The harness running over the front driver's side valve cover can rub through on the EGR tube causing very strange throttle codes and shut down.

3. The computer controls the cruise control circuit through the TPS, etc. The cruise control circuit runs through the steering column airbag clockspring. There was a recall on 2004 - 2006 F150's for the clockspring chaffing and causing airbag deployment. It may be that your clockspring has not been replaced and is causing a problem with other circuits such as the TPS. Have the dealer check your VIN for recall info.

Rich235 said...

Hello Bernard,
I have a 2005 F150 with 4.6L EFI. It’s had a few episodes where it could be blamed on bad gas. When engine started cold, the idle was very high, and then once underway the wrench icon appeared and the engine ran rough as though one or two cylinders were not firing. I returned home, the code reader showed two codes.
P2106 Throttle Actuator Control System, “Forced Limited Power”
P2135 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch A/B Voltage Correlation.
Then I restarted it and it ran like a new truck?

Would you recommend replacing the Throttle Position Sensor? And if so is that a simple Remove and Replace? Or are there special tools to calibrate?
The truck is running fine right now but I suspect another episode and want to be proactive, so I bought a new TPS at NAPA for 50 dollars.
Nice videos in the Kelp beds.
Thanks for the nice blog and help

Rich Audette

BernardL said...

Rich, when you have those two codes you usually have to replace both the TPS and the Electronic Throttle Body. I can't know if you can change either, Rich. If you attempt it, you should have the OEM manual for your vehicle and take digital pictures of everything as you go.

Rich235 said...

Bernard, why do you say its both TPS and Throttle Body? Is it not possible to determine faulty components by reading and interpreting codes?

BernardL said...

Not when Ford has pattern failures on both, Rich. Codes are guides to a particular area. When that area is the throttle body you have two choices. You can replace the TPS first and see if that corrects your problem, or you can replace both the TPS and Electronic Throttle Body at the same time because eventually you will have to anyway because of their failure rate. And yes, there are many checks I do before replacing either one, but I can't do them over the internet.

Rich235 said...

Okay Bernard, I do appreciate your help, and feedback, thank you.

B Dority said...

I have a 2005 Expedition my engine light has never came on but when I push on the gas pedal it does not move then all of a sudden takes off.

BernardL said...

B, that's way too little info for me to even guess at what your problem is. There is a Technical Service Bulletin on a transmission problem. I found this TSB 09-20-14. It seems to cover a similar complaint you've been having. Here is a link to the PDF copy of the Technical Service Bulletin.

http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/bobover/2010-01-23_231853_percievedlackofpower1-2f150.pdf

You might try testing yours by putting it into manual first gear and see if the problem goes away.

Rich235 said...

Bernard, you recommended I take digital pictures if replacing these items (TPS and ETB) is this so I can post here? also, The hardware which mounts the TPS to the ETB is poor material and I wound up removing the ETB also which is dirty on the inside but I dont see any special coating? NAPA sold me the wrong TPS so I will probably visit the Ford dealer and get both new parts, and new poor quality hardware.

Thanks Again,

Rich

BernardL said...

No Rich, the pictures were for you to help in putting it back together. I only buy OEM parts for these types of replacement parts.

Nick M said...

My wife's 2005 Expedition 4x2 is starting to shudder like you are driving over a rumble strip but only when it is in OD and between 45-60MPH. I have turned off the OD when it starts and it down shifts and stops. It hasn't shut off or anything but I have been told to look at the TPS. I have also heard to check tires, the tranny/TC fluid and ignition. Do you think that this could be a TPS? Any information is greatly appreciated.

BernardL said...

Nick, without codes or scanner data I can't even give you a clue. I do know of a TSB 09-20-14 regarding the torque converter clutch on your vehicle. If you have not had this done, I would start there. Here's the link to it:

http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/bobover/2010-01-23_231853_percievedlackofpower1-2f150.pdf

Nick M said...

Well I got the code from 2 different shops and they both gave me a p0301 which is #1 misfire. Could a misfire cause the shudder as stated?

BernardL said...

It sure can Nick, and if you don't get the misfire fixed you can ruin the very expensive catalytic converters. You will still have to find out whether the fuel injector or ignition is causing the miss. If your vehicle has not been tuned, that could very well be it. When one comes to me for a tune-up I do spark plugs and the coils, especially if they've already set a misfire code.

Nick M said...

Thank you very much for your help. I'll start on it first thing in the morning. I happen to have an Auto Hobby Shop here on base that has a code reader. I'll let you know my findings. Thank you sir.

Guillermo N said...

2005 Ford Expedition 72k miles on it. Just got a P2106 code and it sputters and goes into "fail safe mode" after 35 mph. I guess its also a TPS right? I wish I lived near you Bernard cause there are very few honest shops around.

BernardL said...

Guillermo, believe it or not, the vast majority of shops are honest. Poor communication, the wrong questions asked, basic diagnostic procedures not followed, and unfair expectations all have a hand in the perception of dishonesty. We techs are working on vehicles with space age technology and I wish the diagnostics were as simple as reading codes. Every customer walking into my shop for the first time has the same fears as you do. First off, we can’t diagnose customers’ vehicles for free, especially intermittent drivability problems. Try to get a recommendation for a good shop from a friend. You might want to try the iATN website for the International Automotive Technician’s Network I’ve belonged to for many years for a member near you: http://www.iatn.net/

As to your P2106 code, I’m sorry, but that usually means replacing the electronic throttle body assembly, although at the same time I would also replace the Throttle Position Sensor too. Both are pattern failures for Ford on the Expedition. Once you have your problem solved, it might be a good idea to take care of the long term maintenance on it for tune-up concerns.

solisfam said...

having some issues with my 2004 ford explorer xlt V6 4.0L SOHC husband recently took off throttle body to clean and once he replaced it truck turns on but will not accelerate or drive or go in reverse we got scan codes 2111 and 2104 HELP!!!

BernardL said...

Solisfam, those two codes indicate you will have to change the electronic throttle body.

p2104- throttle accuator control system forced idle
p2111- accuator system stuck open

I'm assuming your husband cleaned the manifold because of a prior problem you didn't mention, and also all wiring connections and parts were reassembled correctly. Ford had problems with the wiring harness routed near the EGR valve rubbing through, so as I already commented, checking all wiring is very important. If your husband decides to do it himself, use only OEM Ford parts for the Electronic Throttle Body and Throttle Position Sensors.

solisfam said...

yes he started cleaning everything because the truck would idle wierd and would sometimes shut off and sometimes would have no power while accelerating but like it said now it doesnt accelerate at all i believe he also cleaned the egr valve so then you think we should replace the throttle body and the sensor or just the throttle body and the problem with no acceleration would be caused the the throttle body could he have damaged it because he cleaned it with carb cleaner and not throttle cleaner??

BernardL said...

Solisfam, I have no way of knowing what went wrong. The new Electronic Throttle Body from Ford should come with the new sensors. I didn't mention cleaning the EGR. I advised that your husband should check the wiring harness running near the EGR for chaffing, and all other wiring harness connections.

solisfam said...

Thanks Bernard took your advice and replaced the whole thing and it worked like a charm thanks again for your input!!!

BernardL said...

Thanks for posting the update, Solisfam.

Anonymous said...

Bernard, I have a 2004 F150 with the 5.4L Triton. It keeps going into limp mode after the temperature gauge pegs out to max but the engine is not overheating. I have replaced the heat sensor in the block twice, checked all the wires and there are no breaks or splits. Coolant is fine, thermostat was changed, just not sure what else to look for, any suggestions?

Thanks

Brad

BernardL said...

Brad, I haven't run across that one, but I found a related Tech Bulletin that might be the cause of your problem with a false reading gauge:

TSB
06-21-15 MIL ON - DTC P1285 / P1299 - 5.4L 3V / 6.8L 3V - FALSE OVERHEAT

Publication Date: October 13, 2006

FORD: 2005-2007 F-53 Motorhome Chassis, F-Super Duty



ISSUE:
Some 2005-2007 F-Super Duty and F-53 Motorhome chassis vehicles equipped with a 5.4L or 6.8L 3-valve engine may exhibit an engine temperature gauge indicating an overheating condition with the malfunction indicator lamp (MIL) on with diagnostic trouble codes (DTCs) P1285 and P1299.

ACTION:
Performing normal engine cooling system diagnostics in Workshop Manual, Section 303-03, if it is determined that the engine is not physically overheating (coolant expulsion), install a new thermostat and crossover pipe. They have been revised for improved cooling system flow characteristics.


PART NUMBER PART NAME
7L3Z-8575-A Thermostat - 5.4L
7C3Z-8575-A Thermostat - 6.8L
3L3Z-8C368-A Crossover Pipe - 5.4L
3L3Z-8C368-B Crossover Pipe - 6.8L


WARRANTY STATUS:
Eligible Under Provisions Of New Vehicle Limited Warranty Coverage
Note: Normal would be from 190 to about 220. The actual boiling point of the system is about 262. 212 water+5 for coolant +15x3 for cap pressure =262.

Anonymous said...

Hi Bernard. My name is Rick and I have a 2006 Ford Expedition XL with the 5.4L engine. Over the past year, I have had several instances of the engine shutting down (10 times - the frequency has increased over the past month/ 6 weeks) while driving. There doesn't appear to be any conditions which always occur. I.E., it could be at highway speeds or back roads, under a load (towing) or normal drivng, hot weather, cold weather, etc. The "wrench" light will come on. I'll be able to re-start the engine and it appears to run normally, until it shuts off agin. I have checked the computer with a OBDII code reader and found no codes. I also took it to the dealer who could not find any codes, and could not diagnosed the problem. They could not re-create the problem. I have researched online and found several suggestions about possible causes and repair options. I'd like your opinion on the validity/ probability of some of these options. TPS, Throttle Bosy assembly, Cam Sensor (cam phaser the same thing?), Crackshaft sensor, Fuel filter, fuel pump, bad ground (or some other disruption of the electrical circuit). I'm not experienced enough to gauge whther any of the possibilites are unfounded or not. I really appreciate your time and opinion. Thanks, Rick.

BernardL said...

Normally, if the wrench lights up on the dash, it sets a code to be read, Rick. If no codes are present, it's possible there is an interruption of power or ground leads somewhere. All power and ground connections should be checked for corrosion and tightness. As I've mentioned before, there is a harness that runs behind the EGR valve tube that gets chaffed through. I'm assuming ignition maintenance has been performed, and thorough scanner data and fuel pressure readings tested at the dealer. If the spark plugs and coils have not been replaced, they can cause strange interruptions of power when they misfire, but they usually set a misfire code.

Nick D. said...

Hey Bernard, just wanted to thank you in advance for your advice. You've already been correct with one of my trucks problems and I hope you'll be able to help again.

It started with a 107 lean code. The truck ran fine so I ignored it. Then one day from a stop if you gave the truck normal throttle it would start to go and then it would shift real hard and accelerate normally. The truck drove fine as long as you didn't have to come to a complete stop. Even then if you let it roll before hitting the gas it would be fine. So I got the car home (another trip to the mother-in-laws of course) and found a vacuum leak just after the MAF. I fixed that and then noticed my conical filter had fallen off so there was potential for debris to get into the engine. Buttoned all that up and the car ran fine for the test drive.

The next morning on the way to work it felt weird so I asked the old lady to park it and I'd take the train. Of course she couldn't not go to her moms that day so she took the truck. I get a call at work that the truck is screwed. I get there and now on the ride home it takes a ton of gas to get it going. I got it home and cleaned the mass air and the TPS sensor connections (which I already replaced thanks to you). I also forgot that the tps isn't really a sensor so I took it off the t/b but then realized I didn't need to do that and bolted it right back. The power on the battery terminal was corroded badly so I cleaned that as well. Went to fire her up and nothing. So I charged the battery for a couple of hours and still nothing. Replaced the battery and the truck fired right up.

Went to go for a test drive and it takes a ton of gas to get it rolling. Reverse feels fine. When I drop the truck into gear you can't feel it engaging until reverse. Is this my trans or hopefully some kind of sensor or solenoid?

Thank you so much for your time and input.

-Nick

Nick D. said...

Oops forgot to refresh your memory - I have a 2005 Expedition.

BernardL said...

I'm sorry, Nick, but you have a lot of description but no data. I've mentioned there is a wiring harness that runs by the EGR tube that gets chafed. It can cause a lot of weird problems. Without a lot of specifics you can only get with a thorough diagnostic check there's not much more I can tell you.

Nick D. said...

I'm not throwing any codes more either. I'll check that harness. Will I have to splice in wires or just wrap them up? Thanks again.

BernardL said...

You'll have to repair the wiring, Nick. If it's obvious the harness has been chaffing against the EGR tube, you'll have to carefully remove the outer wrap to get a look.

Vince said...

I have a 2006 Lincoln Navigator 5.4 and recently I have had it misfiring something terrible. In the past I took to mechanic it was coil pack we replaced and everything was fine. But this time no one can figure it out, not even Ford. I have spent upwards of $700 trying to diagnose the problem with no answers. I am getting code po301, po302, & po300 all misfire codes. We have replaced the plugs (8) we replaced cylinder #1 & #2 coil pack, and we replaced the #1 injector. We also replaced the MAF. The mechanic had the Nav for a week and tested the vacuum, relays, and anything else electric he could find. My next step was to replace the fuel filter and pull the TB and clean it. Any other suggestions? I am at my wits end....

BernardL said...

Vince, I change all the plugs and coils when I do a service on those so I'm not guessing as to whether another misfiring coil is causing a different cylinder code. Also, I use only Motorcraft plugs and coils. Aftermarket coils can cause problems.

That said, I would hook up a vacuum gauge to the engine. If the needle jumps then something's wrong with the valve train. If it's low, you may have a compression problem. If you had a vacuum leak it would be setting lean misfire codes and the engine rpm would be raised. The PO300 is a random misfire which means something's causing the miss to jump cylinders. That's why when you stated you only replaced a couple of the coils it still doesn't eliminate a bad one from causing the PO300 code.

Sorry, but yours is one that I would start with the basics, checking all power leads, grounds, chaffed through harness behind the EGR tube, water seepage into the cab fuse box from the windshield (also a pattern failure), fuel pressure, and even running compression on each cylinder if everything else checks out.

Frank said...

Bernard, I recently had my plugs changed and 2 of my coil packs as my 2005 Expedition was having the usual mis-fires around the 3 and 4th gear. NOW it seems that when I come to a stop my idle comes down and then there is a weird reaction for a couple of seconds and then goes back to normal? Is there something that my mechanic could have done that caused this to happen by chance? Is there an adjustment for something like this? Also I got the Check Electronic Throttle sensor message yesterday as well, this happened only one other time about 6 months ago...Any thoughts? Thank you!!

BernardL said...

I doubt it's because of something your mechanic did, Frank. The Throttle Position Sensor and Electronic Throttle Body on them is a Ford pattern failure item. Depending on what codes come up you will have to replace them.

Frank said...

The down idle issue just started after the tune up and that was just done a few days ago...it was like something got tweaked being it was non existent before the spark plug change and coil pack replacements. Idle also is adjusted when I turn the wheel at a stop light etc...

BernardL said...

If you have the TPS and Electronic Throttle Body Codes as outlined in many of the comments here, there really isn't anything else to do besides change them, Frank.

pk said...

Hi Bernard, we are having a similar problem, but maybe not exactly. our 2005 Expy Eddie Bauer runs great, but it occasionally idles rough while at a stop light while in gear. not awful, never stalls, but enough for my wife to notice.

People have recommended cleaning or replacing the IAC, but form what I can tell its part of the throttle body. Is the IAC a serviceable/replaceable part? What is your recommendation for these symptoms?

FYI its throwing no codes. It has a fresh fuel filter, plugs and is otherwise in fine tune.

Would love to ask you about some other issues/noises, but if you can help on this I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks!

BernardL said...

Usually if the coil over plug assemblies fail they set misfire codes, pk, but not always. If you've never done them all, I would do those. The intermittent rough idle could be just about anything from poor quality fuel to the TPS and Electronic Throttle Body starting to act up. My advice would be to run it down to an eighth of a tank and fill it with premium fuel - Chevron supreme if available or Unocal Super. If that makes a difference, you'll know the cause. If it doesn't help, you may have to wait for more symptoms.

pk said...

Thanks Bernard! So the IAC is not an issue or is it just an unreplaceable part of the whole TB? Any value to cleaning up that area? I only ask as so many people seem to think that is a cause. I initially suspected a coil pack, but it hasn't thrown a code yet.

If I try the fuel, is there any value to running a bottle of techron through it or are we just trying to isolate bad fuel as the problem?

BernardL said...

The Chevron fuel injection cleaner is a good product to put in the tank, pk. Yes, doing the gas thing is for isolating the problem. No, I don't think cleaning anything on those Ford Electronic Throttle Bodies is worth doing. I used to until the failure cases have mounted up. If you wish to know more about your vehicle you should invest in an OEM shop manual. They're available here: http://www.helminc.com/helm/homepage.asp?Style=helm

Vince said...

Bernard - I replaced all COP's, had all wiring checked, did vacuum test, compression test, fuel test, replaced injector #1, and had all plugs replaced approx, 20K miles ago. I pretty much have the horrible miss all the time now (every once in a while it will run perfect). Most of the time it runs rough and idles really rough when in gear and other times it feels like there is a governor on it and it will hardly go running really rough and shaking. It is still throwing codes p0301 & p0300. Could it be a bad TPS or Fuel filter? Also not sure if this is important but lately when I touch the vehicle while exiting I get shocked on the fingertips (like static shock). It seems like when it runs really bad the cyinders are all being starved of fuel and then all a sudden they get fuel again and it runs ok.

BernardL said...

20,000 miles is a long ways. Vince, scanner info in your case would be very important. If those are the only codes you're picking up and yet the oxygen sensor readings are within computer parameters and not setting lean codes it may be you're still having problems with the COP's, or fuel injectors on those cylinders. Also, you need to check the manifold vacuum. If the needle is high and steady, then fine. If it's oscillating you have something wrong in the valve train. Other than that you may have to simply take it in to be diagnosed. If you've read the other comments, there is a harness running behind the EGR tube that chaffs. Check that too.

FRANK said...

MY NAME IS FRANK PUT IN TPS AND ALL NEW PLUGS AND COILS, ALSO NEW PLUG ON TPS, NOW WITH TPS PLUGGED IN TRUCK WONT START, UNPLUGG IT TRUCK STARTS .HELP PLEASE

BernardL said...

Frank, I can only give you a guess, assuming you meant you replaced the pigtail lead to the TPS. I'd guess you put in an aftermarket TPS or you wired the new pigtail lead in wrong. Put in your old TPS and see if it starts and runs then with it connected. If it does, then you can eliminate the pigtail. Then get an OEM TPS.

FRANK said...

thanks for your help change tps. it was two month old but it was bad thank yoou frank

BernardL said...

Thanks for the update, Frank.

Vince said...

Bernard,

Thanks for all your advice. But I still cannot narrow down my problem of horrible misfire. my codes are reading p0301, p0302, & p0300. I took the plug off my VCT solenoid and cleaned it and it seems to run better but still misses really bad intermittently. When the RPM's are up it tends to run very smooth. When rpms down very high chance of rough misfire (light blinking). I was going to try and swap the VCT solenoids from bank 1&2 and see if the problem moves. From the reading I have done it seems logical for the VCT solenoid to be hanging up or clogged. The last oil change was about 3,000 over and this is when the misfire started acting up. we had the COP & Plug replaced along with an oil change. Never ran the same since. What do you think?

BernardL said...

Vince, I don't think you know one way or another whether compression is good or not because you haven't had it tested. I also don't think you did the vacuum test I advised to check if it's high and steady or oscillating, which would indicate a compression problem. If you've decided to simply throw parts at it on my guesses, then take the electronic throttle control off and all parts in the way of doing the valve cover gaskets, and no, I'm not going to detail the operation. Buy an OEM manual from here:
http://www.helminc.com/helm/search_service_owner.asp?Style=helm&class%5F2=FRD

Once you have the valve covers off you can check for heavy sludging and change the VCT solenoids, valve cover gaskets, and replace the electronic throttle control at the same time. Buy only an OEM ECT. If the engine is heavily sludged you may be on the right track replacing the VCT solenoids (don't clean them, change them). Start changing oil and filter every 2,000 miles with Motorcraft synthetic blend oil for the next 20,000 miles to clean things up. If it doesn't help when you get it back together, you will have to have it diagnosed by a reputable shop in your area as I recommended a couple comments ago. I know you've spent money without a fix, but I don't know what else you can do. Before you rip it apart, get the manual, and make sure you've actually checked all the things I listed in prior comments.

Vince said...

Thanks for the advice. I must not have been clear in telling you that I have not been the only one diagnosing this. I have had it at two different reputable shops and they are really at a loss without pulling valve cover and further diagnosing once the open it up. It has been to my local Ford dealer and they didn't have any answers for me either. Both reputable shops checked compression, fuel pressure, vacuum, & sensors. So you are right I haven't personally checked the compression or fuel pressure but my local mechanics have and both said they were in the acceptable range. I went back to Ford today and spoke with Service Manager and he pulled my file and spoke with technician to see if the VCT Solenoid had been tested/diagnosed by him. He said no but said it is very likely that could be the problem with all the problems(codes) on the same bank.

BernardL said...

Then pulling the valve covers, checking for sludge, and changing the VCT solenoids might be your only next move, Vince, especially if the engine is found to be sludged up. Those solenoids usually throw out some cam timing codes when they're bad but it may be intermittent enough not to. I can't think of anything else that would be triggered by an extended oil change interval. Don't forget if you haven't done it already to check the harness for fraying by the EGR tube. I stress that because you haven't mentioned checking it, and I've had that cause some very strange problem misfires.

Ashlie said...

Hi, I have a 05 Explorer V6, and yesterday a friend replaced the battery for me (I had left the dome light on, and the battery was still original) and when I turned the car on the Engine Fail safe mode came on. All other levels were fine both on dash and system check. The car drove fine before battery died. I pressed on gas, absolutely NO ACCELERATION at all. It will not idle. If you put in reverse or drive it will roll in either direction though. Now I need to get this towed to somewhre here in San Jose, but just wanted to see if you have any ideas as to if I should tyr to have the throttle sensor replaced..

BernardL said...

Ashlie, I would try:
1. Disconnect the battery terminals (both of them) for at five minutes.

2. Briefly touch the two together.

3. Connect them to the battery correctly.

4. Turn the key to on but do not try to start the vehicle. Leave it for at least ten minutes.

5. Briefly turn the key to crank and then off all the way.

6. Then start the vehicle and see how it does.

If it still acts up I would recommend towing it in to the dealer because you may have to have it reflashed. Did you jump start it by any chance before the battery replacement? If you did, that may have zapped something in the computer.

Ashlie said...

You're awesome to do this blog, you know!?

Yes, my boss let me borrow his battery charger pack, and I used that around October 1st, which worked. then a few days later it was out again. So I put off buying a new battery, because I have another car. So it sat there drained for over a month.. not sure if that made things worse.
Right after I had used the battery pack to jump it I got a full tune up @ Capitol, and all was well, so I'm hoping that perhaps the little foam disks O'Reillys got me to buy with the battery or the connections are just fooling with it. After work, I am going to try your recommendation.

BernardL said...

It is possible you're having TPS or Electronic Throttle Body problems, Ashlie, but the fact it ran fine before you had the battery changed makes me think it may need rebooted. If it acts up again in fail safe mode, it will probably set some codes that will indicate where the problem is. I hope it just needs to reboot.

BernardL said...

Before I forget, here is the procedure for Ford computer relearn without a scanner. This is for ones that NO LONGER recognize the Ford Key FOB. This programs new keys. I repeat - this procedure is only for those NOT starting at all because theft light is flashing and key not working. Battery must be fully capable of sustaining this long process or you will end up with an aborted procedure.

PROCEDURE WITHOUT A SCAN TOOL
If you do not have a scan tool with PATS
programming capability, then you can use
the following procedure. Just insert the
new key into the lock cylinder and turn the
cylinder to the “Run” position. After you
do this, the “Theft” indicator light will
begin to flash. It will take approximately 15
minutes for the light to stop flashing.
Within 5 minutes after the light has
stopped flashing, Turn the ignition switch
to the “Off” position for one second, and
then back to the “Run” position. After
doing this, the “Theft” indicator light will
begin flashing again for another 15
minutes. When the light stops flashing for
the second time, turn the key to the “Off’
position for one second, and then back to
the “On” position for the third and final
time. The “Theft” light will flash for
another 15 minutes. After the third time,
which will be approximately 45 minutes
from the start of the process, the PATS
control module will have erased any of the
keys that were programmed into its
memory, while programming the new key
that you have just used into its memory.
This key will now start the car. Any
additional keys can now be programmed
using the Spare Key Programming
procedure.
4

TroyT said...

2003 5.4L expedition (Eddie Bauer): I can drive at any speed (10 or 70mph) and or temperature outside (30Deg to 105Deg) and the the engine will cut off (no codes shown). I can wait 2-10min and it will start and run fine until next time it happens. It can do it once every 2-3months or sometimes 2x a day with a similar occurance. Tapping the peddal/feathering does not help. Would it be the TPS?

BernardL said...

Troy, if you've changed the spark plugs, and 'coil on plug assemblies' already, tested for adequate fuel pressure, and are not using 'Rotten Robbie' cheapest gas you can find, then if you want to guess rather than have your vehicle diagnosed - change the Electronic Throttle Body with sensors.

TroyT said...

Hi Bernad, Thanks for your prompt reply. I had the Ford dealer and another local shop look at it and they could not find anything wrong with it. It has 185K and climbing, but I can change the spark plugs and wires to see if that will work. I can't remember when that was done with this expedition. I'll keep you posted Thanks.

KevPar said...

Hi Bernard... stumbled across your post here and have a similar problem. First i got codes for o2 sensor Bank 2 Sensor 1. Ended up having that sensor replaced by Ford. That fixed CEL.. but i still have a problem with stalling. It happens once or twice a day. Happens at speed and at rest but generally happens when I'm off the gas. Just shuts down... no clunking, just BAMMMMM and it's off and power steering is gone. What I've found is that it will restart after 5 or 6 turns of the key. But if i pull the key all the way out and put it back in it starts on the first try????? Ford couldn't diagnose and there is no CEL with this problem. They've suggested that it could be either my after market "superchip" or the alarm/autostart causing the shut down, but feels like just an excuse for not being able to find a legit cause. I've recently replaced the fuel filter too. Any thoughts? Could this be a TPS issue? 2003 F150 SuperCrew 5.4L

BernardL said...

Troy, remember if you do the plugs and COP's yourself to loosen the spark plugs a quarter of a turn with the engine cold and then let it set overnight with a good penetrating oil pooled at the bottom of each spark plug hole. Then when you take them out, make sure if you still have one that sticks tighten, loosen, and spray again until it's free.

The Idle Air Control can cause intermittent stalling without setting a code too.

BernardL said...

Kevpar, I agree with your Dealer's assessment. Those add on chips are famous for causing weird problems. As I mentioned to Troy, the Idle Air Control is another common cause for intermittent stalling without setting a code.

KevPar said...

Thank You Bernard... really appreciate you taking the time to answer... i'm going to take the chip out and see if it effects my issue and will keep you posted.

Thanks a bunch...

jerry B said...

I have 2006 expediton limetd 5.4 has low speed surge at 30 mph has 72,000 miles.and no codes.

BernardL said...

Jerry, think about it. How in the world could I know what's wrong with yours. I'm a mechanic not a magician. You need to have it analyzed at a shop for all the basics. If you want to try something right away - check your fluid levels and run the tank down to an eighth of a tank and fill it with premium fuel such as Chevron Supreme or Union 76 Super.

jerryB said...

just wanted a suggestion not a magic show. turn out the convert on 2-3 shift is locking up to erly. but thanks for the sarcasem.

BernardL said...

You're welcome, Jerry, and here's some more. If you had read the other comments or mentioned the 2/3 shift to begin with I could have repeated a Technical Service Bulletin out which is a good possibility:

TSB 09-20-14

http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/bobover/2010-01-23_231853_percievedlackofpower1-2f150.pdf

Anonymous said...

I have an 05 F-150 5.4 that runs great when cold but when it warms up it decides it wants to stall at idle... I have tried to get the codes read, but was told that the port is not transmitting codes even though it has power and the check engine light is on. Also, when it does start the dying it develops a " knock" that goes away if you raise the rpms to 1000 or higher. Any suggestions?

BernardL said...

Anon, when the computer will not communicate, it usually means three things - bad ground connections, bad power connections, or faulty computer. I don't know how you had the codes checked, but you need to have them checked at a shop with more than a code checker, and you need the basics of fuel, ignition, and compression checked.

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Anonymous said...

Great posts Bernard.

I too have a sick Ford. My problems are similiar to everyones, but a little different. I scanned my 2004 F150 and the codes that come up are P2104, P2106, P2111, and P2135. Three out of four of those come back to the Throttle Body and the P2135 come from the APP sensor (accelerator pedal sensor) which should be caused by the Throttle Body.

What happens is when driving and slowing down to come to a red light, the RPM dip below 500 and then the truck dies out. If I put it in park and restart it, it will run fine...for awhile. This happens every so often. I cleaned the throttle body out and it ran good for a week or so, but now this happens everytime I hop in my truck. Its at the point where it is dangerous to drive in town. Ideas?

If I replace the throttle body, do I have to reprogram the PCM to learn the new part?

Thanks for your time!

BernardL said...

With those multiple codes I believe replacing the electronic throttle body is the only way to go, Anon. No, you should not have to reprogram it, although goofy things do happen once in a while.

Anonymous said...

hey bernard, im trying to save money on gas on my 2004 f150 and somebody told me that by installing a G performance ship, that will save me money and gas....do u know anything about this ship.?

BernardL said...

Anon, one of the warnings is aftermarket chips interfere with the OEM computer and diagnostic capability. Most are banned in California. I don't install them, work on them, or recommend them. I've researched a couple that supposedly do incredible things and they have their fans. With gas prices like they are I can understand your interest. Remember this though, if Ford could have upped their gas mileage and still obeyed the emissions laws they would have, so be careful.

Roselyn said...

hello I Have a 2000 ford expedition v8 and i am in alaska so here it gets like 40 below or colder sometimes...but these last few years my expedition been having trouble... like once in a while the RPM'S well revv up to 5-6000 and we have to stop it from taking off and shut it off and when we restart it its back to normal...and it seems to do it when it is cold but i really don't know what it is ....and also don't want it doing it when its really icy out there and with my kids in the car .....it revs up but before it does it warns us ...like it will slow down a lil then rev up and try take off and i had someone look at it and i dont know what they did but it stopped doing it for 5 months but now it does it when its cold or some odd times i have no problems with it except for the high very high rpm's sometimes it goes way up to where when we slam on the brake cuz it wants to take off it burns rubber stopping the car any ideas ??? thank you

BernardL said...

Roselyn, you need to take your Expedition in right away. There are just too many things that can cause what you're experiencing for me to pinpoint your problem. The Throttle Position Sensor can be defective and cause intermittent revving, but also a coolant temp sensor intermittent open circuit telling the computer the engine's cold when it's not can cause a sudden high rev. A stuck idle control or even a defective computer can do what you describe. You stated someone found out what was wrong when it did this and fixed it for five months. Take it in to someone before you have a serious accident.

Roselyn said...

Oh and on top of all the rpm's problems i noticed along with that the check engine light is on so yeah just letting you know

BernardL said...

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COLD BLOODED

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